Discovery by sifting through all of the option combos

[skotterz]

this is a mind-blowing opportunity. i can’t believe i get to design my own controller and can finally ditch several pieces of gear with something comprehensive and future-proof. thanks yaeltex!

my current problem besides impatience to get my hands on this device i’m creating is how to best configure it, i’m a little overwhelmed by some of the choices i have to make before i pony up some big monay. but i want to pull the trigger asap.

i’m curious how others went through the process, what ideas they started with, what they took into consideration along the way, how the plethora of options changed how they designed or redesigned their performances.

here below is maybe pretty close to being my project and will sit beside my Push2 and MidiFighter Twister. for this companion controller i wanted quick and easy access to more than 8 real faders and also to all sends and all macros on all tracks, the number of tracks usually around 40 to 50. i don’t need pan, crossfade or transport functions. i play scenes in order in session view that contain clips of my pre-produced samples in half the tracks, and i play and record and loop live instruments in the other half.

i know i’ll need to really learn how to use the banks feature to navigate the set, and getting the feedback lights to always let me know where i am is very important, and i’m sure there’s some stuff i could utilize that i have’t even thought of yet. any ideas or feedback anyone has about anything including how to use buttons and pots for my purposes will be immensely appreciated.

[skotterz]

just putting together that post yesterday helped me to think through some details, and i think i’ve arrived at a better form. i’ll use the 8 pots at the top for macros. the 4 RGB buttons below each fader will be for mute/solo/upper/lower, and the 4 RGB buttons below the encoders will be for Sends A-D/Sends E-H/macros 1-4/macros5-8. Then the 32 RGB buttons along the right side will be for Banks and whatever else i’ll think up, like:
program changes
redbox location navigation
shifter(s)
pre/post fader assignments
bank selector shifter(s)
?

[Ale]

Welcome to the forum @skotterz!!
It’s great to hear you are enjoying the process!
Cool design! I think it would be the first double fader raw controller made in the Factory

@skotterz

the 4 RGB buttons below each fader will be for mute/solo/upper/lower,

What upper/lower do?

i wanted quick and easy access to more than 8 real faders and also to all sends and all macros on all tracks, the number of tracks usually around 40 to 50

If its a performance device, bank 1 should have all the important parameters and I would avoid shifting analoge components (e.g: potis, faders, etc) so you don’t have to deal with value scaling or pick up on a live situation.

How are you planing to map it to Ableton?

To work out the banks (and the overall idea actually) its a good practice to screen capture the layout, (use the “preview” app on mac or the free version of adobe xd or similar) and write down what each component do.

The idea is to end up with a nice overview of what each bank will do.

[skotterz]

thanks for your help, ale !!!

@Ale

What upper/lower do?

upper - mute/solo applies to upper faders. lower - mute/solo applies to lower faders

@Ale

I would avoid shifting analoge components (e.g: potis, faders, etc) so you don’t have to deal with value scaling or pick up on a live situation.

i hadn’t thought of that. i’d rather have encoders there than pots but i’ve used up my allotment. i’m not sure i need any pots anywhere at all - i don’t really tweak EQ during performance. maybe i use the pots for a single group macro?

at the moment i only need 11 or 12 faders for the sample tracks with room to grow 4 more tracks if/when needed, so the faders wouldn’t be shifting from bank to bank, but maybe i stick another fader up there at the top to control 4 group volumes?

or maybe another 32 RGb buttons that maybe i can set up to show (by color?) exactly which tracks the encoders are currently controlling? with ClyphXPro i never have to look at my computer during performance so it would be great to know at a quick glance at this controller exactly where i am. if this is possible i think that’s what i’ll do. is it?

@Ale

How are you planing to map it to Ableton?

the 8 pots? i was thinking of mapping them to selected track macros, but . . .

@Ale

The idea is to end up with a nice overview of what each bank will do.

VERY helpful, thanks.
so this TURN triggers clips by pushing the encoder switches and then twirling them for the sends in Bank 1, and in Bank 2 an encoder controls macro 1 as is but macro 5 while holding down the shift button? or do i have that wrong? i don’t see a shift button on the diagram.

also, i haven’t found this anywhere in the documentation, but are there only a max of 4 banks?

[Ale]

No prob @skotterz!!

@skotterz

upper - mute/solo applies to upper faders. lower - mute/solo applies to lower faders

Ah! understood.

@skotterz

i hadn’t thought of that. i’d rather have encoders there than pots but i’ve used up my allotment. i’m not sure i need any pots anywhere at all - i don’t really tweak EQ during performance. maybe i use the pots for a single group macro?

Yep, that’s a possibility. Maybe on the master or on a subgroup?

@skotterz

or maybe another 32 RGb buttons that maybe i can set up to show (by color?) exactly which tracks the encoders are currently controlling? with ClyphXPro i never have to look at my computer during performance so it would be great to know at a quick glance at this controller exactly where i am. if this is possible i think that’s what i’ll do. is it?

Sure! With ClyphXPro you have a lot of flexibility. On the controller side, we have a feature called “value to color” where the velocity of the message will be translated into a color following this chart. So you can set clyphex to send a specific Note message with the color/velocity you want the controller to show.

@skotterz

so this TURN triggers clips by pushing the encoder switches and then twirling them for the sends in Bank 1, and in Bank 2 an encoder controls macro 1 as is but macro 5 while holding down the shift button? or do i have that wrong? i don’t see a shift button on the diagram.

Yes, you are correct. The encoders on bank 2 are set as “double cc”, where you can have a message on rotation and another message when clicked, on the first state only one CC is sent, and on the second state (when the switch is on) both messages will be sent together and displayed on the ring.

@skotterz

also, i haven’t found this anywhere in the documentation, but are there only a max of 4 banks?

The amount of banks is dynamic meaning that it depends on the controller’s size, or more precisely on the kind of components and the number of messages to be saved. Up to 8 banks and a minimum of 3. In your latest design, you can accommodate up to 8.

Another strategy is to use DDC nativeKONTROL, Remotify, or similar to make the scripts, you can have as many banks/shifters as you want as they live on the computer side.

[skotterz]

@Ale

The encoders on bank 2 are set as “double cc”,

i see. pretty slick. so 2cc as opposed to QS, which would be like the momentary computer keyboard shift button? i guess this TURN doesn’t have or need a dedicated shift button, or QS?

@Ale

Another strategy is to use DDC nativeKONTROL, Remotify, or similar

DDC? i’m not familiar with that one, but almost none of my nativeKONTROL scripts survived the switch to Live 11, so far. even ClyphXPro is still not ready for Live 11, tho the free ClyphX is. it’s quite frustrating trying to put together a set waiting for Stray to finish updating it. i even got a couple of beginner courses in Python from Udemy before i discovered Remotify/CSS. i’m a dyslexic non-engineer so i wasn’t looking forward to trying to learn Python!

i thought of another use for pots or faders up there at the top - VIDEO CONTROL - i recently got Ebo Suite so i could have something visual in my sets besides a dude twiddling knobs onstage. i think the pots would work for controlling video, but i’m not sure whether i’d need 8 or just 4.

[Ale]

@skotterz

i see. pretty slick. so 2cc as opposed to QS, which would be like the momentary computer keyboard shift button? i guess this TURN doesn’t have or need a dedicated shift button, or QS?

Yes, its a cool one. The switch in the encoder serves as a shifter (momentary or toggle) but is a local shifter so it will only shift that encoder.
And Turn is just like any other controller, you can set your shifters in Kilowhat.

@skotterz

DDC? i’m not familiar with that one, but almost none of my nativeKONTROL scripts survived the switch to Live 11, so far. even ClyphXPro is still not ready for Live 11, tho the free ClyphX is. it’s quite frustrating trying to put together a set waiting for Stray to finish updating it. i even got a couple of beginner courses in Python from Udemy before i discovered Remotify/CSS.

Yes, the migration from Python 2 to 3 (AL 10 to 11) has proven to be somehow tricky. I’m sure Stray and John at Remotify will eventually solve it. edit: Oh! DDC is discontinued, sad news.

@skotterz

i’m a dyslexic non-engineer so i wasn’t looking forward to trying to learn Python!

@skotterz

i thought of another use for pots or faders up there at the top - VIDEO CONTROL - i recently got Ebo Suite so i could have something visual in my sets besides a dude twiddling knobs onstage. i think the pots would work for controlling video, but i’m not sure whether i’d need 8 or just 4.

Yeah, like! Just play around a bit with the software and it will become clear if you need 4 or 8…

[skotterz]

@Ale

Just play around a bit with the software and it will become clear if you need 4 or 8…

good advice. i’ll do just that. my current thinking as i delve into ebo is that most of the video in my sets will be automated, but ebo does present a lot of options for live interactions, so . . . 8 pots clearly offers the most future versatility.

i just have to finish mapping out the banks layout to make sure i have enough RGB buttons on the side. i’m still trying to figure out relevant purposes for them. it’s an embarrassment of riches, tbh.